33 replies to this topic

[Buggsy]

I have consistently been using EI since 2001. A large amount of my income these days comes from using it in my architectural services business. I have struggled though with the time frame required to produce a quality animation. I don't know if it's my approach, my skill level, incorrect use of the software or just that I am demanding too much from EI. My quicktime movies never seem to be smooth, I have to wait an entire day to render 5 seconds of animation, I don't understand how millions of polygons is talked about like it has no bearing on the rendering speed when it has a big impact, to get a good quality image without grain and noise requires rendering times in hours per frame even then when I import it into Final Cut Express HD the resulting quality is compromised, I can't seem to get a video onto my youtube channel that doesn't glitch and jump, #@!*&.............Ahhhhhhhhh.............

Ok, what are the secrets, who's been hiding them from me all this time and how do I purchase them or get them?

I have done a lot of animations but I guess my problem is what is a realistic production time for a given quality of video. What is too long a rendering time, per frame? Is Final Cut Express HD my problem? Is wanting a rendered resolution of HD (1920x1080) why I'm feeling frustrated? Should I choose a lower resolution with better anti-aliasing?

Please feel welcome and free to let me hear what everyone does. I want to add animations to the services I offer. I'm not talking about dodgy animations though. I mean eye catching, gob smacking, professional quality, polished stuff. I think EI can do it, it's just probably me that is having troubles finding the way.

Check out our website where you can see some of my adventures into animation and the architectural still stuff we do.
http://www.goodbuildingdesign.com.au/

Michael

[Tomas Egger]

Ola Michael,

You know How Im fan of your work
To jump in the animations field for you is a natural step.
Yes, 3D animations are slower when we use the latest lighting tools and bigger render sizes.

Ok, EIAS 8 render have a 32 bits limit and singe core limit, which means, we can assign only 2GB of Ram, today, with render sizes like 1920x1080 + GI + Photons is complex.
We bought EIAS, because we want to make it modern and ready to artists do the animation they want in the render size they want and more..

Right now: after studying so much EIAS all long these years, I can explain whats happening and what can be done for you before EIAS 9 release, which is receiving a lot of care to allow you and the user base do exactly what you are asking right now.

Since I work with Tv advertising films and music video clips, I can explain you all my tricks

Ok, what are the secrets, who's been hiding them from me all this time and how do I purchase them or get them?
You dont need to purchase it, I can answer you!

I have done a lot of animations but I guess my problem is what is a realistic production time for a given quality of video. What is too long a rendering time, per frame? Is Final Cut Express HD my problem? Is wanting a rendered resolution of HD (1920x1080) why I'm feeling frustrated? Should I choose a lower resolution with better anti-aliasing?

- As I wrote, Camera 8 have limits, so, I always used tricks like: If I have internal / external scene, I can disable everything which my rendered virtual Camera is not looking, otherwise, Camera 8 will compute all polygons with GI and Photons (when I use them), pure Skylight (GI) is fast, but Photons produce more realistic images as you know, but if you are trying to render in HD (1920x1080) with huge number of polys, probably Camera we will see the limit fast.

- I always render using 24fps, Are you in Australia, right? probably you need 25fps? (less frames to render and preserve the strobe look of cinema)

- A few users notice that Renderama 8 sometimes shows a annoying bug which randomly change the order of a few frames in a stitched animation or crash in the end of batch list render. (all fixed in EIAS 9), maybe your jump is something like this? the workaround right now is render directly from Local Camera in each machine several parts and edit all pieces later.

Please, explain me better your problems step by step.

Thanks

Tom

[fantomaz]

Hey Buggsy, i am with you - that means: you are not alone!

I totally understand your problem and like me, i always looked
for a big mistake i was doing when it comes to animations.

But after so many years doing animations, today i am sure,
that every 3D-, or combination of 3D/film-problem is a separate
problem of that single job.

Of course when working with 3D you get skills over time, that are
usefull for the next similar job, even when this job comes after years.

And this is the main problem. We have have to be modelers, lighters,
animators, painters, salesman, technican, computer specialist, father
friend and everything else - you name it.

So we are, uhm, lets call it generalists. We have to know a lot of things,
that are not buried in our profession. F.e. i am an industrial designer
and my main education was designing "things", like cars, furnitures
and so on. But i have no clue how the steering of a car works (f.e.).
So i had to learn it, to do an animation of a car.
It can be fun, but sometimes its not. And when you learn it, it gives
you no clue how a brake works - but you need that too for animations.
This knowing of brakes and steerings can be useful for a next job,
maybe an animation of bicycles. But its not useful for lighting a scene...
And when you are at the stage of lighting a job, you discover, that
every animation lighting is different from the other.

So i did a main decision what i want to do, designing things? Doing
stills? Doing animations? No, i wanted that all. But the price was
accepting, that i had to learn for ever "how life and things works",
even when these things are not in my main business.

Since that day i feel better. I did a master plan for me and nailed
the steps i need in my brain: no big jumps, go only steps.
But continuous steps - and dont stop! Sometimes look back, but
mostly look forward.

So when your animation render times are too high (f.e.), look for the
problem (too many poly? wrong lights? to slow computers? and so on)
fix one problem after an other, dont try to fix everything in one goal.
What helps is a good documentation of problems and solutions
that you built on your own base.

And keep in mind, that we are all here with the same problems, so ask
a lot!

Good luck

Alex

[Buggsy]

Thanks Tomas,
Some of my rantings are tongue in cheek but others are real questions. I'll try to explain them as well as possible.

• What is a realistic resolution for high quality animation?
  
• What is a realistic target rendering time per frame for high quality animation?
  
• Do I need to be really focused on reducing number of polygons in my scenes?
  
• How can I reduce number of polygons but retain a high quality result?
  
• Is Final Cut Express HD the right application for what I am trying to produce?
  
• How many stages do I need to go through to develop an animation?
  
• How do I create fast previews when the "Preview" function doesn't seem to be able to control frames per second output?
  
• How do I even use the "Camera View" window with the "Preview" function if the "Camera View" window doesn't seem to function properly? My scene is often all black or parts of the model is turned inside out. I don't have Cull Back Faces turned on. I am using ArchiCAD and perhaps there is a better work flow for importing so I can effectively use the hardware rendering engine. I have played with Perspective Clip but it just seems to end up a mess. I can email a Preview so you can see what is happening.
  
• I seem to have this funny thing happening where if I have selected something my "Camera View" window goes black but when I deselect the item the window restores to the lighting set selected for the "Preview Lights".

iMac i7
OS 10.6.8
8GB RAM

Maybe I just need to work through all the bugs I seem to have to give me a better chance at developing a workflow that increases efficiency and decreases the level of impatience.

Michael

[fantomaz]

Some answers

• What is a realistic resolution for high quality animation?
web: 1024x576 (16:9) (and smaller for some cases)
offline: 1280x720 or 1920x1020 (16:9)
DVD: PAL or NTSC
Bluray: 1980x1020
in general: do a 16:9 animation and look for the right compression and codec,
MP4 is mostly a good one, H264 of course also.

• What is a realistic target rendering time per frame for high quality animation?
I am happy with under 5 minutes for 1024x576, under 10 minutes for 1980x1020

• Do I need to be really focused on reducing number of polygons in my scenes?
Yes, invisible objects should be turned off f.e. Also, when you have a simple cylinder
in your scene and you cant see the top and/or ground of that cylinder, there is no
need to model that cylinder at 256 sides, you only need 64 or less. In general: only
things that are very close to the camera have to be high poly. Think about "proxy"
models, if an object is close: use a high poly resolution, if its far away: use a low poly one.
You can make a selection set for different cameras to quick turn on and off the objects...

• Is Final Cut Express HD the right application for what I am trying to produce?
No problem with the app, you can do most things with FCE that you can do with
the big-brother FCP (V.7) or the new FCPX.

• How many stages do I need to go through to develop an animation?
No general answer on this bullet. Sometimes you need 50 preview renderings,
sometimes only 10.

• How do I create fast previews when the "Preview" function doesn't seem to be able to control frames per second output?
For fast prewiews turn off AA in render window, render to Phong, do a Quicktime preview

• How do I even use the "Camera View" window with the "Preview" function if the "Camera View" window doesn't seem to function properly?..........
I always use the "use camera light" in camera window, so you have a "first person lightning" of your
current scene. Then do a snapshot rendering with the options from above.
When your models are turned "inside-out", then probably your normals are wrong, take a look
at model info window and try to switch the setting.

Feel free to ask!

Alex

[Tomas Egger]

Ola Michael!

• What is a realistic resolution for high quality animation?

Its a subjective answer
In Brazil we still in SD format (720x486), we several times render the double in square pixel (1440x1080) to achieve better AA reducing the size.
As Alex wrote, all the formats are correct.

• What is a realistic target rendering time per frame for high quality animation?

Everything will depend of your complexity in the scene and optimization, I did tons of tricks in my life with EIAS, I can teach all.

• Do I need to be really focused on reducing number of polygons in my scenes?

As Alex wrote, yes, your focus was in the “stills” market, in Animation, a lot of more things are in motion, so, you will loose a lot of details when Camera moves.

• How can I reduce number of polygons but retain a high quality result?

Optimized meshes are always good, keeping bevels and details in the edges and reducing polygons in a flat area, example: if you want to have cube and it doesn't need to have bevels, why it need to have more than 6 faces?

• Is Final Cut Express HD the right application for what I am trying to produce?

I use at home Premiere Pro and they use FInal Cut Pro at Studio, you need to use what you feel more comfortable.

• How many stages do I need to go through to develop an animation?

After I write an idea, I start to block my animations doing a animatic, with simple cubes and low poly objects I can do several Cameras and preview them, really, really fast to see if the Cameras are working and its amazing fast editing, the Camera position, rotations and velocity curves.
Then, I start to replace the simple blocks with good models, add textures, lights and so on.
This will make your workflow amazingly easier.

• How do I create fast previews when the "Preview" function doesn't seem to be able to control frames per second output?

Open Render window and change the render pop-up from Raytrace to Phong, this will force Camera render even faster.

• How do I even use the "Camera View" window with the "Preview" function if the "Camera View" window doesn't seem to function properly? My scene is often all black or parts of the model is turned inside out. I don't have Cull Back Faces turned on. I am using ArchiCAD and perhaps there is a better work flow for importing so I can effectively use the hardware rendering engine. I have played with Perspective Clip but it just seems to end up a mess. I can email a Preview so you can see what is happening.

- As Alex wrote, change in the Illumination list to Camera only and change to software / Z-buffer preview.
 Mode.png   16.65K   16 downloads

- Turn off cull back faces as you did.

- Control Key pressed + Mouse click in the preview button, use Z-Buffer engine, Quicktime (in the output options, choose H264), Enable Drop frames and Playback Immediately (if the output is screen) and detail Phong Shaded.
 Preview.png   13.05K   16 downloads

• I seem to have this funny thing happening where if I have selected something my "Camera View" window goes black but when I deselect the item the window restores to the lighting set selected for the "Preview Lights".

In the Camera viewport? Use in the Illumination list to Camera only and change to software / Z-buffer preview.
Maybe is a bad model which you are crossing or in the preferences you “depth” is too small.

Maybe I just need to work through all the bugs I seem to have to give me a better chance at developing a workflow that increases efficiency and decreases the level of impatience.

You are starting a new field, with lots of questions and a few answers and clients are always pressuring you, so, its normal to feel frustrated!

We are here to help and show our workflow!

Hope that helps a bit! to start!

Thanks

Tom

[S. Houtzager]

Mike,

I can chip in 3 bits.

1. Have to reduce the polygon count. You can use texture maps to fake where detail is needed. As said before, the further away from the camera the less the polygons needed. I use FormZ which gives me lots of control over how many polygons are used as I model. FormZ also has a great reduce polygon tool. Also, EI has a great proxy pluggin which saves on the polygon count.

2. I am finding my clients are asking for HD more and more because they are presenting on HD TVs. The most common is 1920 x 1080.

3. Have several ways to animate the camera. Interiors are tricky because the camera keeps hitting a wall. When I need a real curvy path, I animate a null and attach the camera to it. Sometimes I animate several nulls that are parented together and attach the camera to the last one.

I also animate the camera directly. This is a fast way however the complexity is limited so I have the camera stop at key interest points. This method is a little easier to get a smooth camera movement. The reference line length is key as it acts like a smoother.

[Buggsy]

Here's my first attempt at reducing rendering times on a project I've just completed the stills for. I want to create an animation in order to work out pricing and as a benchmark for all the other projects I want to animate.
As usual the rendering times are no where near the 5 or 10 mins that a lot of people relate but I'm not too unhappy with the image quality. I'd hate to try a frame at 1920x1080. I can't upload the snapshot via my FTP at the moment so I'll add it when I can.

Results are as follows:
EI Version - 8.0
Machine - iMac i7
Resolution - 1280x720
Number of polygons - 330,000
Rendering - Raytrace

Anti-aliasing level - 4x4
Sampling level - 2x2

GI Primary Rays - 150
GI Sampling Area - 2x2

Area Lights - 4
Area Light Primary Rays - 100 (for all 4 lights)
Area Light Photons - 300k each light

Spot lights - 14 (Buffer Shadow, internal lighting), 1 (Buffer Shadow, external sun)

Radial light - 1 Secondary

Rendering time per frame - 1hr 30mins

The rendering time is still too painful for production. I want at least 20 seconds of final animation but this will take 7 days just in rendering time. By contrast if I can get a rendering time of 10mins it will only take 19 hours rendering time. I don't want to let go of quality so I need to know what else I can do to get these times down? I think in my mind that if I could get a rendering time of 20mins I could live with that.

Michael

[interstellar]

Here's my first attempt at reducing rendering times on a project I've just completed the stills for. I want to create an animation in order to work out pricing and as a benchmark for all the other projects I want to animate.
As usual the rendering times are no where near the 5 or 10 mins that a lot of people relate but I'm not too unhappy with the image quality. I'd hate to try a frame at 1920x1080.

Hi Michael,

I know you're trying to reduce your render times, but you might want to reconsider the 1920x1080 format.

I have a library of animations; a few of them are 1280x720 but most are 1920x1080. When a client sees one of my 1280x720 clips, they usually ask if it can be re-rendered at 1920x1080. Just two weeks ago I re-rendered several of my 1280x720 clips to 1920x1080 at the request of a Discovery Channel producer.

Fortunately, my work doesn't require GI (I don't even know how to use it!) so my 1920x1080 render times are very small even at anti-aliasing/sampling levels of 8x8 and 2x2.

Sincerely,

Joe

[Tomas Egger]

Ola Michael,

Could you send to me this project? let me look it? and Im curious to see EIAS 9 render time too.

Thanks

Tom

[fantomaz]

Some questions:

- how many slaves/renderers are working on that machine?
- do you render via Renderama or only with one local camera?
- how many ram per renderer have you assigned? full size aka 2GB?
- is the machine you are rendering on, working on other things while rendering?
- is enough HD space for all the buffer files available?

When rendering 330.000 polys with lots of lights (mix from GI, spot, area (w/wo photons)
and radial) i never had such rendertimes per frame, Even in full HD.

There must be something wrong in that render setup on that machine i think.

Alex

[Mark Johnston]

Hi Michael
Iam not super expert , so maybe this will help maybe not.
The main thing to me seems to be only using raytrace render settings where they are needed phong rendering looks really good and is way ,way , faster.
Now as I understand if you aren't using raytrace shadows or reflections may be transparency then you don't need raytracing on.
But In Eias you can have raytracing used where needed but also not where its not needed by setting the rendering of your objects to only render at phong , if thats all they need, but other objects set to raytrace that need raytrace.
So you have to think what objects need raytrace which don't and set them accordingly in each object info window and still have over all render set to raytrace.
Also use renderama if you haven't been. Get more memory each camera slave needs memory to use.
I agree with Alex it is a constant learning curve
and I think speed is coming in both software and computers that will make us all happy
though it sometimes feels like we are standing still.
Mark

[Buggsy]

Some questions: - how many slaves/renderers are working on that machine? - do you render via Renderama or only with one local camera? - how many ram per renderer have you assigned? full size aka 2GB? - is the machine you are rendering on, working on other things while rendering? - is enough HD space for all the buffer files available? When rendering 330.000 polys with lots of lights (mix from GI, spot, area (w/wo photons) and radial) i never had such rendertimes per frame, Even in full HD. There must be something wrong in that render setup on that machine i think. Alex

I have 4 slaves setup on this machine. When rendering an animation though you can only render 1 frame of animation per slave. Currently this frame takes 1hr 30mins.
I always use Renderama but I'm not sure how this could change the rendering time.
I have assigned the full 2048MB per slave.
When I render using all 4 slaves I leave the machine alone knowing that I've used all 8GB of RAM the machine has.
My hard drive has 700GB of free space.

Michael

[Buggsy]

Hi Michael
Iam not super expert , so maybe this will help maybe not.
The main thing to me seems to be only using raytrace render settings where they are needed phong rendering looks really good and is way ,way , faster.
Now as I understand if you aren't using raytrace shadows or reflections may be transparency then you don't need raytracing on.
But In Eias you can have raytracing used where needed but also not where its not needed by setting the rendering of your objects to only render at phong , if thats all they need, but other objects set to raytrace that need raytrace.
So you have to think what objects need raytrace which don't and set them accordingly in each object info window and still have over all render set to raytrace.
Also use renderama if you haven't been. Get more memory each camera slave needs memory to use.
I agree with Alex it is a constant learning curve
and I think speed is coming in both software and computers that will make us all happy
though it sometimes feels like we are standing still.
Mark

With architectural work the variety of surfaces means I pretty much need to raytrace shadows, reflections and transparencies. I can sometimes leave the transparencies as phong but when you compromise on the rendering level it effects the overall image. As stated I am after eye catching, gob smacking, professional quality, polished stuff and I need a roadmap to get this in the shortest possible timeframe.

Michael

[yhloon]

Hi Michael

I'm wondering do you have lots of object with alpha mask transparent in your scene? for example tree's leaf

[yhloon]

in animation I don't think setting GI Sampling to 2X2 is an good idea, this will slow down the render speed dramatically

I always prefer to set the Primary Ray in between 300-1000, and keep the GI sampling level to 8X8

[Tomas Egger]

Results are as follows:
EI Version - 8.0
Resolution - 1280x720
Number of polygons - 330,000

Anti-aliasing level - 4x4
Sampling level - 2x2

GI Primary Rays - 150
GI Sampling Area - 2x2

Area Lights - 4
Area Light Primary Rays - 100 (for all 4 lights)
Area Light Photons - 300k each light

Rendering time per frame - 1hr 30mins

Michael

Ola,

Looking Michael, project, I changed these settings:

Anti-aliasing level - 4x4
Sampling level - 1x1

GI Primary Rays - 200
GI Sampling Area - 8x8

Area Light Primary Rays - 200 (for all 4 lights)

I added optimization in all lights, adding each light reference size in the optimization box:
 Optimize.png   19.64K   12 downloads

I added Motion Vector Blur on all groups, to let the animation more soft.


2 Tips for faster renders looking your project:

- Turn OFF receive shadows (group info window) in all groups with any kind of glass material.

- In animations, I never use procedural shaders, only bit maps textures, for diffuse, bump, anything.. (the animation FLICK in any kind of 3d application) and they slow down a lot the renders, please, turn OFF in the render window, the shader check box and do a test render, you will speed up the render several minutes.


Sure, I tested your scene with EIAS 9 Camera, I will not tell you the result, let you play with it when we deliver, you will see what Im talking about.

Thanks

Tom

[Buggsy]

Ok. have learnt a number of great tips in getting the rendering times down.

Problem - Procedural shaders chew up a lot of rendering time (I know Tomas, you've told me before). In actual fact around 45% of the rendering time (ouch).
Solution - Render texture maps of the elements with a procedural shader through the top, side, back and front view ports and apply the resulting .img files as texture maps. Where I can't do this I keep the procedural shader.

Problem - Anti-aliasing level 8x8 and sampling 2x2 too high increasing rendering times.
Solution - Keep anti-aliasing at 4x4 and sampling at 1x1 but modify remaining procedural shaders to be smoother reducing flicker.

Problem - Want raytraced Transparencies.
Solution - Turn off receive shadow on each group (I know this one, but forgot about it).

Rendering times per frame with my computer systems is now:

• 640x360 - 9mins
  
• 1280x720 - 20mins (78% reduction from previous rendering time)
  
• 1920x1080 - 38mins

(wahoo!)

Rendering times for 5 seconds of animation with my computer system should then be:

• 4 hours at 640x360
  
• 9 hours at 1280x720
  
• 16 hours at 1920x1080

Next frontier will be external renderings where I use OnyxTree. Thats going to get ugly!

Thanks everyone for your individual comments.
Michael

[Tomas Egger]

Ola Michael,

Good to know!

Why not use textures from internet to replicate your shaders? instead of render from all views to place them.. I use these these kind of textures, or I scan real materials or I took digital Camera photos.
http://www.cgtextures.com/

Thanks

Tom

[Buggsy]

I use NX shader a lot. There were a lot of textures that came with it and I have developed them further over the years to be a valuable means of me getting done quickly what I needed to. NX is great for my detail props where I can't effectively texture map them.

I also use digital camera photo's, web based image sources and rely on photoshop heavily for creation and modification of the maps in my scenes. A shader though can do what a texture map can't and that is to put a texture on a complex shaped object without it looking wrong. I know you can buy another piece of software that unrolls your model and allows you to paint it on in photoshop. This is time consuming for the market I am producing for.

I don't have the luxury of applying what ever surface I think looks good. It is mostly prescribed what it needs to look like and I normally don't get a sample of the actual item to photograph. I just get an email with a photo of the selected tile, carpet etc which I use to create a similar looking noise using NX Shader. In essence I am using EI to take a photo of my NX Shader map which then gets applied to what ever channel I want to use it on or used in photoshop to create the end texture map. My architectural work is really customer driven which works commercially for me.

This exercise has been great provided me with a broader approach and bringing the idea of an animation product much closer. I need to be thinking at the outset of any still work that I want to be able to animate it so need to concentrate on reducing polygon count, minimal use of procedural shaders in the final shot/animation and staying away from higher anti-aliasing levels.

Michael